{"id":23587,"date":"2025-08-27T05:49:09","date_gmt":"2025-08-27T04:49:09","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/comunitaprogettosud.it\/chi-parte-chi-arriva-chi-sta-delle-migrazioni-e-della-restanza-a-sud-intervista-a-goffredo-fofi\/"},"modified":"2026-10-14T16:03:34","modified_gmt":"2026-10-14T14:03:34","slug":"chi-parte-chi-arriva-chi-sta-delle-migrazioni-e-della-restanza-a-sud-intervista-a-goffredo-fofi","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/comunitaprogettosud.it\/en\/chi-parte-chi-arriva-chi-sta-delle-migrazioni-e-della-restanza-a-sud-intervista-a-goffredo-fofi\/","title":{"rendered":"Those who leave, those who arrive, those who stay. On migration and the choice to remain in the South. An interview with Goffredo Fofi.q"},"content":{"rendered":"

by Maria Pia Tucci from \u00c0logon 112<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cIn early 2019, *Gli asini*\u2014the magazine edited by Goffredo Fofi\u2014organized a three-day forum in Lamezia Terme in collaboration with the Comunit\u00e0 Progetto Sud. The event focused on the themes of departure, arrival, and the choice to stay (*restanza*), centering on the issue of migration. Italy\u2019s southern regions serve as a crossroads, acting simultaneously as lands of departure and lands of arrival. Today, it is impossible to understand the Mezzogiorno or take meaningful action toward social change without considering individual mobility, along with its causes and consequences.<\/p>\n

\u201c”Those who leave, those who arrive, those who stay”\u2014these are the three verbs that guided the participatory discussion at this inaugural seminar. It launched a series of meetings dedicated by the magazine *Gli Asini* to Southern Italy\u2014exploring its social, political, cultural, and economic transformations, its position within the Mediterranean, and the experiences and possibilities for social and political action in both urban and rural areas.<\/p>\n

In a sort of circular narrative, we engaged in discussions with Goffredo Fofi, Marco Gatto, and Vito Teti on “Meridionalisms”; with Enrico Pugliese on “Those who leave”; and with Isaia Sales and Dario Tuorto on “Politics in the South today.\u201d.<\/p>\n

\u201cWe heard from those who arrive\u2014Mimmo Perrotta, Alessandra Ballerini, Mamadou Dia, and Martina Lo Cascio\u2014and from those who stay: Marina Galati, Maurizio Braucci, and Savino Monterisi.<\/p>\n

The interview with Goffredo Fofi, editor of *Gli Asini*, helps us focus on certain social issues, starting with the very theme of the \u201cmovement of people\u201d\u2014a \u201cuniversal and timeless theme,\u201d as Fofi himself describes it during our long and fascinating conversation.<\/p>\n

– Let\u2019s talk about migration, about the movement of people<\/strong>\u2026\u201cIt is a massive, important issue. It plays out across two scenarios: an international one\u2014involving the vast population movements that have occurred and will continue to occur in the coming years\u2014and another concerning Italy and the South, where such movements are bound to increase; for instance, the desertification of parts of North Africa\u2014widely predicted by environmentalists\u2014will lead to a much larger number of migrants landing in Italy.<\/p>\n

– Won’t they stop?<\/strong>No, they will not stop, because they are driven by hunger. Generally, those who migrate do so because they are fleeing war, lack the means to survive, or simply hope for a better future.<\/p>\n

– But don’t you think the restrictive structure of the “Yellow-Green” government’s decrees on migration will somehow curb arrivals?<\/strong>I am very pessimistic; I have read a great deal of science fiction as well as history\u2014including the history of the South\u2014and I believe that future waves of migration will be less peaceful than those we have seen so far. Migrants will no longer come to kiss our hands and beg for alms; instead, they will come making demands\u2014likely in far more aggressive ways than before. This will give rise to new forms of barbarism, because our leaders\u2019 response will certainly not be one of welcome and pacification, but rather one of closure and equal aggression.<\/p>\n

This is one scenario\u2014one of the most credible and plausible hypotheses\u2014but regardless of whether this specific view holds true, it is clear that we are in the midst of a massive transformation that has unfolded over recent decades: the financialization of the economy and the immense power acquired by communications, particularly via the internet\u2014which has become a tool of power used to shape our views and, in essence, render us compliant and lulled into passivity. Then there is, of course, the phenomenon of population movements\u2014an issue that is both age-old and new, yet manifests itself through globalization in ways that are far more evident, intense, and widespread than ever before. The world is reshaping itself amidst a variety of responses and a de facto absence of any comprehensive policy.<\/p>\n

– And what about Italy? <\/strong>As for Italy, we are focusing our discussion on the South\u2014on the one hand, because it is once again becoming a site of change that is more evident, rapid, and intense than elsewhere; and on the other, precisely because the South is once again facing greater discrimination in national politics compared to those areas of the country that are traditionally wealthier\u2014and today, infinitely more selfish and insular.<\/p>\n

In my view, Italy has existed as a nation for only a short time. It was born out of the Risorgimento a mere 150 years ago, yet it developed poorly. Fascism attempted to unify the country through violence; fortunately, the post-war era sought to establish a democracy grounded in a set of values \u200b\u200bbased on individual rights and duties\u2014values \u200b\u200bintended to gradually bridge the gap between the North and the South, or, in short, between the country’s wealthy and impoverished regions.<\/p>\n

Bearing in mind one fact\u2014which people always forget\u2014there was a law for the country\u2019s economically depressed areas, to which the State was supposed to provide aid until the early 1960s; these areas included not only the South but also large parts of the Po Valley\u2014such as the entire Veneto region.<\/p>\n

– And what has the South lacked compared to Veneto\u2014a region that, while certainly facing environmental and other problems today, is nonetheless wealthy?<\/strong>Italy is a long country; one part is more closely linked to Europe, while the other lies in the heart of the Mediterranean\u2014in short, these are two realities that have, so to speak, always struggled to coexist. There were times, however, when the North, Center, and South maintained a dialogue and their respective forms of civilization were more deeply intertwined.<\/p>\n

In more recent times, however, Europe has come to be defined by the Mediterranean, and we find ourselves straddling these two worlds: a North where trade and industry flourished\u2014driven by historical and economic circumstances, but also by the migration that fueled the “economic miracle.” That miracle occurred because Northern industries had access to very low-cost labor\u2014labor that, as in other historical instances, was largely drawn from the South or from rural areas (though there was also significant migration from the Veneto to Turin). Migration from the Veneto was substantial, as was that from Tuscany, before the massive influx from the South arrived. There was also a period of solidarity; I recall the slogans of 1968: “North and South united in the struggle.”\u201d.<\/strong><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

– Today, however, the opposite seems to be the case. There is a territorial claim\u2026<\/strong>There has been an assertion\u2014or rather, a rejection of globalization\u2014on the part of, for example, Hungarians, Poles, and even the Germans themselves. This is not an isolated phenomenon, but one rooted in the fear that this unity might somehow benefit the wealthiest while disadvantaging others.<\/p>\n

– But, in your opinion, how true is this? <\/strong>There is a general state of upheaval in which the South is once again penalized, because governments are controlled by the most aggressive and politically astute forces\u2014bearing in mind that phenomena like the League are not localized but international\u2014while Southern leadership classes, who are rather mediocre and subservient to their counterparts elsewhere, lack clarity, lack a proposal, and lack the ability to win over the public..<\/p>\n

This turns into a defense of what is one\u2019s own out of fear of losing it\u2014because there are others, hungrier, coming \u201cto take away the little we have\u201d\u2014and also because the rich are stingy, far stingier than the poor, and far less generous and open.<\/p>\n

– And to delve even further into the North-South issue?\u00a0 <\/strong>At the national level, there is a deeply worrying new divergence between North and South; the ruling class currently in charge is bolder and more “modern” than its Southern counterpart\u2014though, in the latter case, links to the \u2018Ndrangheta are undeniable. Furthermore, the banks that launder everyone\u2019s money\u2014be it from the \u2018Ndrangheta, the Camorra, or the Mafia\u2014are based in the Veneto region but operate in the service of local power structures, thereby spawning a wretched ruling class at both the national and local levels. That is part of the problem, too. After the Left\u2019s self-destruction\u2014following the eras of Veltroni and Renzi, after Berlusconi and Di Pietro, and with the rise of Grillo, Salvini, the League, Bossi, and so on… well, you get the picture.<\/p>\n

We experienced a brilliant era\u2014spanning from 1943 and the Resistance through the 1970s\u2014led by a far superior ruling class: the one that established the Constitution, the Republic, and democracy, granted women the right to vote, and introduced compulsory schooling up to age 13 or 14\u2014creating a unified school system for the children of both the poor and the rich: the public school system. In short, this was a leadership that enacted major reforms, ranging from the healthcare system to the Workers’ Statute\u2014reforms that were eventually abandoned as history took a different turn and economic forces swept away the prevailing model of labor organization. Yet, this is not merely a Southern issue; while living in the South reveals the flaws of the Southern ruling class, living in the North exposes the shortcomings\u2014and at times, the shameful conduct\u2014of the Northern ruling class. Ours is truly a country where the drive for unity has slackened somewhat since the 1980s\u2014or perhaps even since the 70s\u2014to such an extent that the hypothesis of a crisis regarding the very idea of \u200b\u200bthe Nation no longer seems entirely improbable, however far-fetched it might appear.<\/strong><\/p>\n

The problem facing the South is that of developing a leadership class capable of rising to the historic tasks that lie ahead. Developing a national and local leadership class remains a monumental task.<\/strong><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

– How can this gap be filled, given that\u2014as you say\u2014we no longer have the tool of political training?? <\/strong>In many ways. For instance, on a social level, this collective sense of social responsibility allows us to compensate for the State\u2019s shortcomings, as young people join organizations dedicated to social causes. Traditional forms of employment are gone\u2014industries have vanished, even agriculture has completely changed, and artisanal trades are virtually non-existent\u2014so where do people find work? They find it in the social and cultural sectors. These are highly ambiguous fields: while the positive, idealistic motivation is the well-being of others, there is an underlying economic driver\u2014the search for a solution to the problem of finding a job.<\/p>\n

In all this, to my mind, the main enemy is perhaps culture\u2014in the sense that culture today is viewed as a way to lull people to sleep rather than to wake them up. The university system is a vast, organized mafia; culture serves to preserve privileges. And today, communication is paramount: governance happens through communication, and people are made somewhat stupid so they can be more easily manipulated. The message is: buy, agree with those proposing this type of society, go along with those proposing this type of society, and so on. This is one of the pitfalls of our era.<\/p>\n

– Those who leave, those who arrive, those who stay. What is the value of this initiative? <\/strong>This initiative of ours\u2014however small and modest\u2014represents the convergence of several requests; one of them is precisely this: to train young people to be more intelligent than the university system does\u2014to make them more aware of the gravity of the problems and the urgency of taking action, as well as to instill in them a vision of their involvement that is, frankly, moral and ethical.<\/p>\n

But also a vision of politics as a collective responsibility\u2014one that fosters shared accountability toward the *polis*, rather than toward one\u2019s own family, mafia, or power group.<\/p>\n

This is a particularly urgent issue for young people, as they find themselves in a situation where, on the one hand, they witness massive changes unfolding before their eyes yet lack the tools to either understand or influence them. On the other hand, they see waves of migrants; naturally, the League\u2019s stance\u2014offering protection against external arrivals that might threaten their sense of stability\u2014can appeal to many of them. It allows them to pin all the world\u2019s ills on the foreigner. Yet, there is also the fact that they live in a globalized world where mobility is possible. This is their great advantage. Even if they cannot fully make sense of it all or grasp the broader picture, they have the opportunity to see far more of the world than previous generations did. And they do emigrate\u2014especially the young, or at least they are the first to do so. However, adults from the South are emigrating now as well, alongside those who choose to stay put.<\/strong><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

– Who are the ones who remain? <\/strong>\u2026It is something worth asking oneself, but beyond that: what do they do? What would fall to those who remain? The whole issue is something that needs to be discussed.<\/p>\n

\u201cWhat touches him\u201d makes me think, what touches him in the sense: what does he have left or what does he have to do?<\/p>\n

Today, there are multiple forms of poverty. In other words: in the past, we identified economic poverty and perhaps cultural poverty\u2014but today?<\/p>\n

– Today? \u2026 <\/strong>To my mind, the problem today is us. We aren’t just the ones going out to help others; we are the ones who have to save both ourselves and others at the same time\u2014that\u2019s the situation. Perhaps we\u2019re failing to live up to expectations. Or maybe, over time, so many expectations have built up that they no longer match reality?<\/p>\n

– What is the biggest contradiction?<\/strong>The problem is that we need to be clearer-eyed when analyzing our own contradictions: we aren’t simply the “good guys”\u2014we are “good” in an ambiguous sense. We act and work for the benefit of others, yes, but also in our own self-interest; otherwise, we would have nowhere to turn\u2014except, precisely, to emigration. This is the fundamental contradiction of the social sector\u2014a sector that today involves millions of people. There was a time when only a handful of us were involved in this work; now, there are millions organized into associations that often jostle with one another for position. Yet, what has truly died is politics. In the past, we could achieve\u2014shall we say\u2014winning outcomes because we had political backing. There used to be people who cared about social issues; today, there is a gaping void in that regard: we no longer have that kind of support.<\/p>\n

– Can this three-day event\u2014albeit on a small scale, as you mentioned at the start\u2014help us understand this landscape and also take action? Because, obviously, understanding must be followed by action.<\/strong>I don\u2019t know. What we can do is have a discussion free from the hypocrisies and pretenses of the cultural and social spheres\u2014without the empty chatter meant to impress, or the typical “academic” talk. There are some university professors involved, but we invited the ones we trust, and there is\u2014shall we say\u2014a sense of equality. The participants are just like the professors; there isn\u2019t a huge difference between the young people who have signed up and those of us sharing our insights, because it will be like an ongoing roundtable where everyone has their say, bringing their own unique experiences\u2014experiences that differ from our own.<\/p>\n

A shift in approach is also required: we are all both learners and teachers\u2014or, to put it another way, we are all up to our necks in shit, and\u2014like Baron Munchausen\u2014we have to pull ourselves out by our own hair.<\/p>\n

The featured photo shows a moment of conviviality at the Comunit\u00e0 Progetto Sud; from left: Angela Regio, Maria Pia Tucci, Giacomo Panizza, Goffredo Fofi, Isabella Saraceni, Marina Galati, Emma Leone, and Marisa Meduri.<\/h5>\n<\/blockquote>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

by Maria Pia Tucci from \u00c0logon 112 \u201cIn early 2019, *Gli asini*\u2014the magazine edited by Goffredo Fofi\u2014organized a three-day forum in Lamezia Terme in collaboration with the Comunit\u00e0 Progetto Sud. […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":15,"featured_media":11947,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"give_campaign_id":0,"_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","_seopress_robots_follow":"","_seopress_robots_imageindex":"","_seopress_robots_snippet":"","_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"none","_seopress_robots_breadcrumbs":"","_seopress_robots_freeze_modified_date":"","_seopress_robots_custom_modified_date":"","_seopress_robots_canonical":"","_seopress_social_fb_title":"","_seopress_social_fb_desc":"","_seopress_social_fb_img":"","_seopress_social_fb_img_attachment_id":0,"_seopress_social_fb_img_width":0,"_seopress_social_fb_img_height":0,"_seopress_social_twitter_title":"","_seopress_social_twitter_desc":"","_seopress_social_twitter_img":"","_seopress_social_twitter_img_attachment_id":0,"_seopress_social_twitter_img_width":0,"_seopress_social_twitter_img_height":0,"_seopress_redirections_value":"","_seopress_redirections_enabled":"","_seopress_redirections_enabled_regex":"","_seopress_redirections_logged_status":"both","_seopress_redirections_param":"","_seopress_redirections_type":301,"_seopress_analysis_target_kw":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[1011,999,1005],"tags":[994,995,993,996,997,998],"class_list":["post-23587","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","category-appeal","category-news","category-press-release","tag-cultura","tag-goffredo-fofi","tag-comunita-progetto-sud","tag-restanza","tag-sociale","tag-sud"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/comunitaprogettosud.it\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/23587","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/comunitaprogettosud.it\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/comunitaprogettosud.it\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/comunitaprogettosud.it\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/15"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/comunitaprogettosud.it\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=23587"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/comunitaprogettosud.it\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/23587\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/comunitaprogettosud.it\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/11947"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/comunitaprogettosud.it\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=23587"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/comunitaprogettosud.it\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=23587"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/comunitaprogettosud.it\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=23587"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}